Messages in this thread

Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?) - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 08:03PM
     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 08:15PM
         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 09:31PM
             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 06 May 06:26AM
                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:04PM
                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:06PM
                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:15PM
                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:19PM
                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 08:03PM
                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Justin at Sibelius, 06 May 10:39PM
                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 11:37PM
                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Justin at Sibelius, 07 May 03:12PM
                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 07 May 03:22PM
                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 08 May 06:22AM
                                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 08 May 06:00PM
                                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 08 May 07:12PM
                                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 09 May 06:56AM
                                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 09 May 05:07PM
                                                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 09 May 05:24PM
                                                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 10 May 06:59AM
                                                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 10 May 07:27PM
                                                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 10 May 07:33PM

Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 05 May 08:03PM (edited 05 May 08:14PM)
Hi folks,

I am using slurs (phrase-marks - call them what you will!) for the very first time in a big-band arrangement.

Now, I have always preferred to see all articulations sitting within the slur marking.

The Gould Bible (see p122) does offer a handful of contrasting examples of which I am sure she is quite correct. I also checked a few procedures within Sibelius and it seems to adhere to these rules (see below in red).

However, would I look incompetent if I chose to ignore Gould/Sib. and place all articulations inside of the slur? This would be consistent for all types of articulation throughout the entire chart, in all instrument parts.

Many thanks in advance for any kind assistance offered here.

Best,

Paul David Seaman (UK)

Sibelius 8.6 (v. 2018.1 / build 1449 / born 2018-01-22)

Dell Inspiron 3737, Windows 10, 16GB RAM, 1.70gHz, 64-bit, Intel Core i3.

paulseaman1 (at) hotmail (dot) com
Attachment PHRASE_1.png (45K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 05 May 08:15PM
It just looks a bit weird to me when some are above and some are are below.
Attachment PHRASE_2.png (51K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 05 May 09:31PM (edited 05 May 09:32PM)
(...I may as well tag this question here.)

Secondly, at the risk of appearing extremely foolish!, I will pose this question regardless:

Here we have a 'fall' to a fixed-pitch which is immediately reflected back upwards (I have heard a lot of people call the latter a 'rip').

Now, do I need to write a 'slur' (as per screengrab)?; or does it not matter (I mean does it not make any difference whatsoever), please?

Thanks a lot.
Attachment PHRASE_3.png (50K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 06 May 06:26AM
Yes, I prefer to have all my articulations above the staff and inside the phrase mark. I consider the phrase mark (or slur) itself to be an articulation and always uppermost. I would very much like to be an option in Sib.

In answer to your second question, what kind of gliss does your example represent, fingered, lipped or slide? For anything other than a slide, I prefer to see a thick wavy line. There is no need for a slur in either case. I don't always agree with Gould as to rightfulness.

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 04:04PM
> I consider the phrase mark (or slur) itself to be an articulation and always uppermost.

Thanks Ade - I had not looked at it from that perspective ("...to be an articulation") before!

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 04:06PM (edited 06 May 08:54PM)
> I don't always agree with Gould as to rightfulness.

It's great that you are in agreeance with me on this matter. I was expecting everyone to be preaching Gould to me!

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 04:15PM
> what kind of gliss does your example represent, fingered, lipped or slide?

For saxes - fingered.

For brass - my opinion has changed of recent. 'Slide' for trombones. However, after speaking to a couple of UK arrangers, and watching big-bands live and also on YouTube, I now leave it to each trumpeter to make their own choice. I really don't think it makes that much difference regarding the latter. They can follow the lead-trumpeter or else do their own thing. I certainly can't tell any difference with 13 active blowers at 'FF'.

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 04:19PM
> Yes, I prefer to have all my articulations above the staff and inside the phrase mark.

I set the 'articulations' that way in Engraving Rules, thanks. I simply can't bear them buried within the stave! Who can???

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 08:03PM (edited 06 May 08:15PM)
> I don't always agree with Gould as to rightfulness.

Actually the Gould book is not too bad a read; (spoiler) he dies in the end though!

;-0

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Justin at Sibelius - 06 May 10:39PM
Standard practice for articulations and slurs is to have articulations outside the slur ends for all but staccato. The rest should be inside the slur unless they conflict visually, then you have to come up with some solution and that will vary depending on the specific situation.

--
Justin Tokke, Senior Product Designer at Sibelius
[email protected]

Contact the Sibelius support team:
https://www.avid.com/learn-and-support/contact-audio-and-music-support

KB and other resources:
https://www.avid.com/sibelius/learn-and-support

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 06 May 11:37PM (edited 07 May 11:53PM)
Hi Justin,

I tried what you are suggesting earlier on, thanks; but I'm afraid I didn't feel it looked uniform enough.

One thing which has cropped up in my mind is that is there any point in placing a staccato dot over the final quaver of a phrase? Because it's the last note of a phrase, is the player not supposed to shorten it's duration by default?, rendering the staccato marking superfluous.

Paul

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Justin at Sibelius - 07 May 03:12PM
I suppose if you wanted a "clipped" sound or a noticeably shorter note at the end of the phrase, staccato would be useful, yes.

--
Justin Tokke, Senior Product Designer at Sibelius
[email protected]

Contact the Sibelius support team:
https://www.avid.com/learn-and-support/contact-audio-and-music-support

KB and other resources:
https://www.avid.com/sibelius/learn-and-support

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 07 May 03:22PM (edited 07 May 03:22PM)
> I suppose if you wanted a "clipped" sound or a noticeably shorter note at the end of the phrase, staccato would be useful, yes.

Justin - I'm inclined to leave such events in place because varying the notation might cause confusion. If I lost the staccato dot at the end of the below phrase then the player might wonder why so. Thanks.
Attachment Staccato.png (40K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 08 May 06:22AM
The last note in your example looks fine for interpretation. Or you could simply write an 8th note without articulation.

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 08 May 06:00PM
> Or you could simply write an 8th note without articulation.

Thanks, that's a really good point I had not considered; although I think I will leave it as is now (I'm at the stage of wanting to get shut of the piece!). Probably reconsider in future arrangements.

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 08 May 07:12PM (edited 11 May 02:17PM)
Ade - I'll target yourself with this one as you seem to be the Master Chef here!:

Necessity of a slur marking over an intended legato passage with scoops, please?

;-/
Attachment ADE.png (38K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 09 May 06:56AM
No slur. The scoops indicate that each note is a new entry. As for plunger, you have no indication as to as to how it should be used. You need close & open marks (+ or o or +o).

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 09 May 05:07PM (edited 09 May 05:43PM)
> No slur. The scoops indicate that each note is a new entry. As for plunger, you have no indication as to as to how it should be used. You need close & open marks (+ or o or +o).

Oh yes, of course! Thanks.
Attachment ADE_2.png (59K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 09 May 05:24PM
...and for my final question, please:

Should one slur-mark an 'open/closed' passage?

Thanks.
Attachment Slur_Wah.png (38K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by Adrian Drover - 10 May 06:59AM
I wish you wouldn't clutter your examples with ruler marks. Attachment 1 is OK. Attachment 2, you don't need the slur.

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 10 May 07:27PM (edited 10 May 07:31PM)
> I wish you wouldn't clutter your examples with ruler marks.

You mean these? Do they really cause such a visual obstruction?

I have never ever turned them off to be honest.
Attachment ADE_3.png (31K)

Back to top | All threads
 
Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?)
Posted by monsterjazzlicks - 10 May 07:33PM
(I just got an email from Marianna somebody at Sibelius?!)

Back to top | All threads
 

Quick reply

To add a reply to the end of this thread, type it below, then click Reply.

(.sib, .png and .jpg only)

Messages in this thread

Articulations / Slurs (positioning preference?) - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 08:03PM
     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 08:15PM
         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 05 May 09:31PM
             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 06 May 06:26AM
                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:04PM
                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:06PM
                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:15PM
                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 04:19PM
                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 08:03PM
                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Justin at Sibelius, 06 May 10:39PM
                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 06 May 11:37PM
                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Justin at Sibelius, 07 May 03:12PM
                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 07 May 03:22PM
                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 08 May 06:22AM
                                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 08 May 06:00PM
                                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 08 May 07:12PM
                                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 09 May 06:56AM
                                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 09 May 05:07PM
                                                                         Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 09 May 05:24PM
                                                                             Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - Adrian Drover, 10 May 06:59AM
                                                                                 Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 10 May 07:27PM
                                                                                     Re: Articulations / Slurs (positioning preferen... - monsterjazzlicks, 10 May 07:33PM