Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Sam L. Richards - 06 Feb 01:41PM Hide picture In the attached passage (a picture, note that the tempo is approximately quarter=60) it was suggested to me that I indicate bowing here by having a down bow immediately followed by an up bow. I was told that the markings were to be right next to each other, with the down bow directly over the note and the up bow just to the right of it. First of all, is it practical to bow it this way? Second of all, if so, should I mark it that way? Is this type of marking typcial? Third of all, if I am to mark it that way how do I go about creating these bow markings in Sibelius without venturing into the pain "symbol land" for every instance that I have a similar passage? Is it possible to create this type of marking just using the keyboard layout? Thanks. Sam Attachment bowing_passage.png (5K) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Phil Gaskill - 06 Feb 02:08PM Hide picture Sam, > In the attached passage (a picture, note that the tempo is approximately quarter=60) it was suggested to me that I indicate bowing here by having a down bow immediately followed by an up bow. I was told that the markings were to be right next to each other, with the down bow directly over the note and the up bow just to the right of it. > > First of all, is it practical to bow it this way? --Yes. > Second of all, if so, should I mark it that way? --Yes. > Is this type of marking typical? --Yes. > Third of all, if I am to mark it that way, how do I go about creating these bow markings in Sibelius without venturing into the pain "symbol land" for every instance that I have a similar passage? --There's no way that I've ever discovered, unfortunately. > Is it possible to create this type of marking just using the keyboard layout? --Unfortunately not, because you're using a Symbol, not an Articulation. "Normal" bowing marks are Articulations and thus you can access them using only your 10-key pad. --However, you *can* create a keyboard shortcut for the symbol(s) in question, in Preferences (or by using a Bob Zawalich plugin: there are several having to do with Inserting Symbols). --Of course, once you have one downbow and one upbow symbol in place, as long as you're still geographically fairly near them, you can simply copy and paste them to new locations without having to go through dialog boxes, etc. -- Phil Gaskill Sib 5.1, PhotoScore 5.5.1, Dolet 3.4 Mac Pro 2.66, OSX 10.5.1, 4 GB RAM also, on the same Mac: Win XP SP2, same versions of Sib, PhotoScore, and Dolet Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Ian Cugley - 06 Feb 04:33PM Hide picture You can make a single symbol in one of the 'Custom Articulation' slots, and it will then be available from the same keypad layout as the normal bowing marks, and you could also define something for its performance in the Dictionary. I can't think of a sensible definition other than a change of Sound ID, if you have a library with some kind of a sfp sample, but the potential is there. The advantage is that it's easily available, keeps the spacing uniform, and moves with the note if you transpose. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Phil Gaskill - 06 Feb 07:34PM (edited 08 Feb 12:24AM) Hide picture Ooh, and then you can define its horizontal offset to +2 or something? Great idea; I'm going to start using it myself immediately! MUCH LATER: EDIT: Oh, now I see. I thought we were only talking about making a new upbow that was offset to the right, so one would use both the normal downbow and the new offset upbow. Now I see that we were talking about making a *combined* mark that included both the downbow and an upbow just to its right. Stupid of me not to have figured out that that's what we were talking about; but at least it does explain my stupid-looking comment at the top of this post. . . . -- Phil Gaskill Sib 5.1, PhotoScore 5.5.1, Dolet 3.4 Mac Pro 2.66, OSX 10.5.1, 4 GB RAM also, on the same Mac: Win XP SP2, same versions of Sib, PhotoScore, and Dolet Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Sam L. Richards - 07 Feb 07:28AM Hide picture Ian, your method works perfectly. I am able to get exactly the symbol I am looking for and am able to access it from the keypad. I am, however, experiencing what appears to be a bug while using the process. While changing the spacing of my score the Up-bow part of the double articulation completely disappears. If I go back into the Edit Symbols dialog I find that the extra Up-Bow symbol (which I "added" to and offset the down-bowing order to create the double articulation) is replaced by the text "No Symbol (leave empty)" I haven't yet been able to pinpoint what action I take that causes the articulation to disappear, but I find it strange that the actual symbol itself seems to be changing. If I change it back to the double bowed articulation it looks perfect only to disappear minutes later when I edit some other portion of the score. Totally bizarre. Does anyone have any insight into this phenomenon, or do I need to make another thread about this supposed bug? Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 07 Feb 09:17AM Hide picture Samuel Richards wrote: > Does anyone have any insight into this phenomenon, or do I need to make another > thread about this supposed bug? You don't need to make another thread about it, but if you could post the *exact* steps you took to create the symbol in the score, that would be very helpful to us in tracking it down. -- Contact Sibelius technical help: North/Central/South America: [email protected] / 925-280-2101 UK: [email protected] / 020 7561 7997 Australia: [email protected] Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Ian Cugley - 07 Feb 10:14AM Hide picture >Ooh, and then you can define its horizontal offset to +2 or something? Well, yes, of course, if required. I have the first symbol horizontal spacing set to 1, to line up on the left of semibreves (the sign is usually only found on long notes). It does rather depend on whether your symbols are set to 'Center all on stem' or some other setting in the Engraving Rules. >While changing the spacing of my score the Up-bow part of the double articulation completely disappears. I know that others have experienced this and have reported it on this page. I don't know the exact circumstances. It doesn't currently seem to happen to me. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Sam L. Richards - 07 Feb 10:39PM (edited 07 Feb 10:46PM) Hide picture All right Daniel, here's the exact steps I took to create the Down-bow+Up-bow symbol that I'm having problems with: 1. Go into the edit symbols dialog. 2. Clicked on the blank symbol box just to the right of the "Down-bow above" symbol 3. Clicked on Edit 4. I changed the name to something like "Down-Up bow" 5. I then selected symbol number 179 (the down-bow symbol) using the Common Symbols font. Note that I didn't change the default positioning for this symbol before I continued. 6. I then clicked on the "Add Extra Symbol ..." button 7. I then chose the "Up-bow above" symbol. 8. I changed the horizontal positioning of the added Up-bow symbol to 1.5 9. Pressed OK and closed the Edit Symbols dialog 10. In order to apply the symbol I selected a note, and from the 4th keypad layout chose the center "custom" symbol over (the one right above the stacattissimo symbol). It is worth noting that I was surprised to find that the default blank square character still appeared in the keypad layout. I was expecting it to change to the character that I had just created. 11. Voila! My special bowing symbol was successfully applied. After a few minutes of further editing, however, I discovered that it had turned into a mere down-bow above each note I had applied it to. I reentered the Edit Symbols dialog only to find that the symbol itself had changed and the extra up-bow symbol that I had added to it had been replaced by absolutely nothing and in the Extra Symbols the only item listed was "No symbol (leave empty)" I then proceeded to change it back to the way I wanted it and everything was working fine until it I noticed that the symbol had changed back to the Down-bow only symbol again. This happened several times before I gave up and decided that I would just let the symbols be and apply them after I had finished editing the score completely. I have yet to figure out the exact action I take the causes the symbol to change to "No symbol (leave empty." I'm still working on the score, however, and if I discover exactly what it is that causes it I will be sure to post it. *Edit* : I just discovered that when I copy a note (or passage) and then paste it into the score the symbol disappears immediately when I paste it. I hope this helps. BTW, I'm using Mac OS X 10.4.11 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Jody Hughes - 07 Feb 11:43PM Hide picture Hi there Samuel Richards wrote: >I just discovered that when I copy a note (or passage) and then paste it into the score the symbol disappears immediately when I paste it. I hope this helps. Nice one. I'm sure that helps a lot. And I can confirm this. Pasting *any* passage (it doesn't need to include the symbols in question) causes all composite symbols to lose extra symbols that have been added. Because I used the demo version, I can't check whether saving & re-opening stops this from happening. Jeremy -- music editor/setter iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB/OS 10.4.11/Sibelius 4.1.5 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Daniel Spreadbury - 08 Feb 03:16PM Hide picture It does help a lot, thank you. Now we can reproduce this problem at will we should be able to fix it. For the time being, the workaround of saving the score ought to do the job. -- Contact Sibelius technical help: North/Central/South America: [email protected] / 925-280-2101 UK: [email protected] / 020 7561 7997 Australia: [email protected] Other countries: contact your distributor (www.sibelius.com/buy for details) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 08 Feb 05:02PM Hide picture > For the time being, the workaround of saving the score ought to do the job. Saving is not enough, but close and re-open the window does. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 07 Feb 09:39AM Hide picture > If I go back into the Edit Symbols dialog I find that the extra Up-Bow symbol (which I "added" to and offset the down-bowing order to create the double articulation) is replaced by the text "No Symbol (leave empty)" Edit the symbol again, exactly how you did it before. Now immediately save, close your score and open it again. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Wim Hoogewerf - 08 Feb 12:05AM Hide picture I can confirm this as well: 1. Open any score > go to House Style > Edit Symbols > New > choose any symbol and add any other symbol > OK > Close. Save or don't save. 2. Do any copy and paste action. The added symbol will immediately be replaced by 'No symbol (leave empty)' However, if you save and close the window (as I suggested already), the composite symbol remains stable. Well done, Samuel. I was getting as far as just watching the screen until the symbol might disappear, while listening to some music. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by kbundies - 08 Feb 01:01AM Hide picture Samuel, I personally would leave the bowing to the player. Even if your suggestion is a very good one, it would turn your performer into a slave. (they like to keep some creativity to themselves, even if it is just the bowing ;-) Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Phil Gaskill - 08 Feb 03:09AM Hide picture k, I respectfully disagree. Interpretation is in the hands of the conductor. Bowing is often a totally necessary part of interpretation. Compare the effect, for example, of repeated downbows on repeated quarter or half notes that have sfz marked, contrasted to down, up, down, up. Both are, or could be, legitimate ways to bow such a passage; which to use is in the jurisdiction of the conductor, who knows what effect he/she wants. And Sam's example is a way of getting repeated downbows on repeated whole or double-whole notes, just an extension of my example. Now, I don't know whether Sam is a composer, arranger, copyist, conductor, or what. So what I say above may not apply to him. But your statement, I suggest, is too broad in that it totally excludes the conductor from the decision-making process that is rightfully his/hers. The composer also often wants to have something to say, especially in cases like the example I give above. Tell Mahler that he's turning his performers into slaves. I don't even know if Sam's piece is orchestral or chamber. (I was assuming orchestral, but I realize that I could be wrong.) If the latter, then I withdraw much of my protest, since there is no conductor. But the composer still has every right to specify bowings when there is an effect to be employed (or avoided). -- Phil Gaskill Sib 5.1, PhotoScore 5.5.1, Dolet 3.4 Mac Pro 2.66, OSX 10.5.1, 4 GB RAM also, on the same Mac: Win XP SP2, same versions of Sib, PhotoScore, and Dolet Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Sam L. Richards - 08 Feb 03:28AM Hide picture Thanks for the comments about bowing. I am a composer, and the work in question which brought this whole issue to the forum is a cello quartet to be performed some time in the next few months. It will not be conducted in performance (as most quartets for strings are not). I initially asked about whether or not I should include the bowing in the score because I asked a friend who is a cellist and he winced "I hate it when there are bowings indicated in the score," he said. "Most players just end up changing it anyway." I certainly understand where he is coming from, but I also understand that very different effects can be achieved by using different bowings for the same passage. Given the short time I have in which to rehearse the score with the players I figured it would be beneficial to include some bowings in key sections where it would otherwise take up precious rehearsal time to figure out the bowings together as a group. I also figure that in some cases if bowing is indicated it can almost function like a marking of character would in the score. In styles that are not necessarily conventional I have found that most players have to tendency to play somewhat mechanically. Because of the necessary physicality of instrument playing, if the motions the player is to make while playing are indicated in the score it may contribute to the players understanding of the "mood" or style of the piece. It seems that bowing is not purely a technical issue, but also something that truly contributes to the "music" of the work. I am not a string player, and I welcome any comments or corrections to these thoughts. -- Samuel Richards Composer/Performer/Media Artist Sib. 5.1 | Mac OS X 10.4.11 | Dual 2.5GHz G5 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Jody Hughes - 08 Feb 08:26AM Hide picture Hi there Although I've contributed to this thread, I haven't considered the original request until now. As a professional cellist, I'd say that I would want the first instance to have the composer's bowing suggestion included, but after that it's not really necessary, and clutters the page, so I would leave them out. If you want some forte-piano semibreves to be played this way and others not, then you'll have to think about how to notate the difference, of course. Note, however, that this bowing, when done by one player rather than a section, has a slightly different effect, because the bow-change is clearly audible. The ear hears it as two notes, the first very short, the second long. With a section of players, the players's bow changes don't align exactly, and this stops the audience from hearing two notes. So you have to ask yourself how short the forte part of your note is, and whether the bow-change is acceptable or desirable. If you really want that, you could notate it as two notes, and then the bowing is unnecessary. If you are going to be allowed at rehearsal, I'd leave a decision until then. If it is the only sensible bowing, the players will find it for themselves. Hope that's useful. Jeremy -- music editor/setter iMac Intel 2GHz 2GB/OS 10.4.11/Sibelius 4.1.5 Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Ian Cugley - 08 Feb 10:39AM Hide picture Put the indications in if you really want particular ones, but probably not otherwise. Players will grumble, find a better way, and mark their own bowings VERY LOUDLY in pencil. But at least they will be looking for bowings that match what you said you wanted. Afterwards, re-do the parts, incorporating the bowings marked by the players. Following the next performance the parts will once more come back littered with new markings, which may well be the ones you started with in the first place. Back to top | All threads

Re: Sib. 5.1: String bowing indications (cello) Posted by Rob Tuley - 08 Feb 11:28AM Hide picture You have got two basic choices, for any instrument. I don't think strings are a special case. 1. Use the notation to say what you want to hear, and leave the players to figure out how to do it. 2. Tell the players what to do technically, and let that imply what the sound will be. The things NOT to do are 1. Teach grandmothers how to suck eggs (if you are producing an edition for students, this may not apply). 2. Give technical directions that show your knowledge of the instrument is limited, or (worse) just plain wrong. In this case (as a former non-professinal string player) I think it's kinda obvious to a solo cellist that you can't make a "big" sfp (also marked with an accent), and a cresc back to a "big" ff, all in one bow, at your tempo. And as Jeremy said, a bow change will be more or less audible. So something's got to give. In the context of the rest of the score, it might be obvious what is most important, but it's impossible to tell your single note attachment. So... if you care about what matters, change the notation (for example you might want to write two tied notes, and show exactly where the bow is supposed to change). If this is just an minor incident in the context of the whole piece, leave it for the players to do something sensible. And discussing how to bow one note, without knowing what is before and after it, is a rather theoretical exercise... -- Rob Sib 4.1, Win98SE, Athlon 3100, 512Mb, Audigy Back to top | All threads